Lore Before Lawyers: Hatred, Chaos Dwarfs, and the Hobgoblin Problem
One tiny rule, one very long discussion
Sometimes the most Warhammer thing possible is spending far more time debating a single special rule than actually moving models.
This time, we fell into a wonderfully nerdy argument about Hatred, specifically where it should apply when Chaos Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Hobgoblins all enter the picture.
And honestly? We loved every minute of it.
The starting point
The spark was simple enough:
- should
Hatred (Dwarfs)also apply to Chaos Dwarfs? - and should
Hatred (Orcs and Goblins)also include Trolls or Hobgoblins?
On paper, this is the kind of question that can split a gaming group into rules lawyers, lore purists, and people who just want to roll dice and get on with it.
We managed to become all three at once.
The expert witness enters the room
At one point Michał brought out a very respectable argument: this was discussed with someone who had worked at Forge World as a consultant on some models and had been playing WHFB since 1996.
That is exactly the kind of credential that makes everyone pause for a second and go: alright, let’s hear it.
But even then, this was never really about blindly accepting authority. It was more interesting than that. We were trying to figure out what felt right in the world, not just what could be squeezed out of a line of text.
Are Chaos Dwarfs actually Dwarfs?
This was the core of the disagreement.
Michał’s rules-side instinct was basically: Chaos Dwarfs are not Dwarfs. They are their own thing. Twisted by Hashut, culturally separate, and very much not just ordinary Dwarfs with worse attitudes and taller hats.
And that makes sense.
But then came the more important point for us: lore-wise, Hatred probably should apply.
Because if a rule says someone hates Dwarfs, it is hard to argue that the corrupted, tyrannical, bull-worshipping offshoot somehow escapes that hatred on a technicality. If anything, they might inspire even more of it.
So in the end, we leaned toward the narrative read:
Hatred (Dwarfs) includes Chaos Dwarfs.
Not because the wording is necessarily crystal clear, but because it feels right in the setting.
The reverse argument: who hates whom?
Then Stas flipped the whole thing around with a very fair lore jab:
if we’re going by lore, maybe it’s the greenskins who should hate the Chaos Dwarfs.
And honestly, that is also compelling.
Black Orcs in particular have every reason to despise their creators and enslavers. The whole Chaos Dwarf–greenskin relationship is one of the nastier bits of old Warhammer background: brutal control, forced labor, and engineered violence.
Michał summed it up in the most Wiatry Magii way possible: sometimes the creation hates the creator.
Which, weirdly enough, may be the cleanest summary of the Black Orc–Chaos Dwarf relationship we could ask for.
The Black Orc question
That led us to an important distinction: is this true for all greenskins, or only for Black Orcs?
That matters, because broad faction labels in Warhammer are often much messier than they look.
Black Orcs are the obvious case. Their hatred of Chaos Dwarfs feels deeply rooted in the lore.
But what about goblins?
This is where the conversation got even better.
Michał pointed out that goblins were also enslaved by Chaos Dwarfs, and that in older material — before the term Hobgoblins settled in around 6th edition — editions 4 and 5 used the very direct label “Enslaved Goblins”.
That is exactly the kind of old-school Warhammer detail we adore: slightly messy, deeply specific, and capable of changing how you read a rule twenty years later.
Where we landed
After all that back and forth, we arrived at a compromise that felt both playable and lore-friendly:
We agreed that:
Hatred (Dwarfs)includes Chaos Dwarfs
But we did not agree that:
Hatred (Orcs and Goblins)includes Hobgoblins
And that second part is the really interesting one.
Why? Because even if Hobgoblins are connected to the broader greenskin world, they are not simply interchangeable with Orcs and Goblins in the way the rule phrase suggests. They sit in an awkward, treacherous, very Warhammer niche of their own.
Stas summed it up neatly in the end: Hobgoblins are basically a different greenskin race.
Which feels right.
But are Hobgoblins even green?
Naturally, once we had solved the actual rules issue, we immediately moved on to the truly important question:
are Hobgoblins even green anymore?
According to Michał, in original GW materials they are.
In his army, however, they are grey-blue.
Which means, obviously:
Smurfs.
And that is how a discussion about faction taxonomy ended with us mentally picturing treacherous little steppe goblins as evil Smurfs in Chaos Dwarf service.
Warhammer is perfect.
Why we like playing it this way
What we enjoyed most in this whole exchange was not even the final answer. It was the process.
These are the discussions that make old Warhammer feel alive: digging through half-remembered editions, mixing strict wording with setting logic, and then agreeing on something that will make the game feel better on the table.
Not necessarily cleaner. Not necessarily more official. But better.
So for our games, the takeaway is:
- Dwarf hatred can extend to Chaos Dwarfs
- Hobgoblins do not automatically count as Orcs and Goblins for hatred purposes
- and if someone paints them grey-blue, they may have to accept being accused of fielding Smurfs
Which, in our opinion, is a fair and balanced ruling.